¾«¶«´«Ã½

Welcome to Season 2 of Meadows
on the Mic, the official podcast

of the ¾«¶«´«Ã½ Meadows School of the
Arts.

I'm your host Andy Draper, part
of the Meadows marketing team

and podcaster extraordinaire.
On this show, I'll be bringing

you in depth interviews with
Meadows faculty, students, and

alumni, covering everything for
performances, exhibitions,

exciting research, and the
overall Meadows experience.

Pony up for another great season
of Meadows on the mic.

On this episode, we interview
returning guest Margaret

Winchell, Director of Choral
Activities at ¾«¶«´«Ã½ Meadows.

She discusses her first year
experience at ¾«¶«´«Ã½, the Meadows

Choir, summer trip to China, and
what students could look forward

to in the new academic year.
Let's get to know Margaret

Winchell again.
Margaret, welcome back to the

show.
It's so glad to have you on

again.
Thanks so much for having me.

You're our first return guest
and I'm excited to follow up

after your your first year and
that's where actually where I

want to start as my first guest.
Last year you were just starting

at Meadows as the What's your
title officially?

I'm the director of choral
Activities and assistant

professor of music.
Right, exactly.

And so there's a brand new role
and now you have a year under

your belt, is your second
academic year.

What was that first year like?
Oh, it was so exciting.

I mean, I, you learn, I think
you learn so much about the

place that you're finding
yourself in just as you go

through a year.
And so I know the students

better now.
I know the choirs better now and

kind of what they, what they
gravitate towards and what they

can do like really easily and
the kinds of ways they want to

be challenged and the kind of
repertoire that sounds really

sounds really great in their
voices and the kinds of

repertoire that they need more
exposure to.

So I mean, there was a, there's
a big learning curve certainly,

but, but I feel like I have a
better sense of the territory,

right?
Like I've like I've taken a hike

now and I'm going to go on the
hike a second time and I know, I

know where the Creek is this
time.

Right.
You've got to know though, the

students and their capabilities
and their limits and boundaries

and where you can make maybe
push them a little bit and just

kind of figure out what what
repertoire fits the best.

Absolutely, yeah.
Good.

So the big thing or one of the
big things I wanted to talk

about is this big trip you got
to go over the the summer to

China, which is which is really
massive.

That's a huge trip.
It's it takes like 2526 hours to

get there, if not longer.
So tell us in general about the

trip and kind of how it came to
be.

Yes, we had a great time in
China.

The, as I understand it, the,
the invitation came about

because of a visit that Dean
Holland or Dean of Meadows took

to, to China, maybe in the last
couple years to, to try to

expand SM US international
presence and recruit some of the

fabulous musicians that, that
come to us from other countries,

right, including China.
And in, in building those kind

of connections.
He had a contact at the embassy

who, who then was dialoguing
with various people in, in China

with this association that ended
up hosting this choral festival.

So that's the, the kind of
convoluted version.

But what actually happened was
that we got an invitation via a

contact at the embassy from the,
the association, the Chinese

people's association for
friendship with foreign

countries.
So they are interested in

providing opportunities for, in
this case, particularly youth

from other countries, including
America and youth in China, to

build connections, musical and
otherwise.

And So what they, the reason
that this festival was a choral

festival was because they
acknowledged that music and

making music together and
particularly in an ensemble

context is a really great way to
build a sense of community,

which I believe is true here
and, and certainly is true when

you when you travel as well and
get to interact with other

choirs.
So the, the festival that we

participated in was about 10
days in China in two different

cities.
One was in Fuzhou and one was

Beijing and it brought together
choirs from across the US and

China from all, all kinds of
age, ages and levels.

So there were, there was a youth
show choir, there was there were

a couple like high school
choirs, there were a few college

choirs and then there were some
that were intergenerational.

And there were choirs also from
across China from either I, I

believe, like associated with
schools or a more kind of

community, community based choir
that that draws from a not just

one school, but from a, a
broader slice of the population.

And in coming together, you
know, each choir got to bring a

set of music.
They, they asked us to choose

music that was around the themes
of friendship and teamwork and

kind of optimism about the
future.

And, and over the course of our
time in China, all of the choirs

performed the music that they
had brought.

But we also did some, some
singing together in like a, a

huge massed choir, which I, I
will just shout out a colleague

of mine at Utah Valley
University, Reid Criddle, who is

fluent in both Mandarin and
English and was thus absolutely

the right person to, to, to lead
some of these bilingual

rehearsals that brought Chinese
and American singers together.

And I was, I was jealous of his
language prowess and his ability

to kind of seamlessly work with,
with singers from both both

countries in, in one rehearsal.
And it was, I think, a great

opportunity for our singers to
be able to sing alongside people

that they would never encounter
if they weren't invited to this

festival and if they weren't
traveling with a choir.

Yeah, that sounds like a a
really incredible opportunity,

especially something like that
where you get to do this mask

choir kind of thing.
It it shows kind of how

Universal Music can be and
really impressive that that you

had something that could
rehearse in both languages and

kind of communicate back and
forth.

Yeah, sorry.
The one of the, one of the kind

of peak experiences of that was
that they, they were, they were

mask choir events where we had,
I don't know, probably close to

1000 singers singing together.
But they also asked us to sort

of choose a couple students or
each for each conductor to

choose a couple students from
their choir to make sort of a

small scale exchange performance
happen.

So we sent two of our singers
and then all the other choirs

sent 2 or a few more of their
singers, depending on the size

of the ensemble.
And and that group of singers

prepared some combined
repertoire, some of the same

stuff that we sang as a matched
choir.

And then a few other pieces for,
for what ended up being a, a

performance for the essentially
the first lady of China, the

president's wife, who herself is
a trained, A trained singer and

apparently quite known for her
like fashion sense as well.

And of course, she looked so
elegant.

And then we all got to meet her
and she was, she was a delight.

But I, I think an opportunity
like that, I mean, obviously

it's very cool as just a, we, we
sang for someone important.

But I also think that that, you
know, we talk about these, we

talk about travel as an
opportunity for cultural

exchange.
And and it is and part of that

cultural exchange is the stuff
that you expect.

So eating food that you're not
usually eating in in America for

breakfast, you don't, you know,
maybe you don't have edamame and

chilies or a like mustard
flavored roll.

I don't know, right.
So you think of it in being a

certain, a certain kind of thing
or, or fashion or visiting

important cultural sites.
And that's all that all is part

of it.
But the other, the fascinating

element of cultural exchange
that I think this opportunity

gave our students and me is
seeing how like an event gets

organized.
It's a really kind of practical

way of thinking about cultural
exchange.

But, but actually, you know, if
we imagine how we prep for a

concert or if we think about
even what what it would be like

to prepare for a performance at
the White House or at some kind

of special government event,
there are certain assumptions

about protocols and and
priorities that you might

encounter as a musical ensemble
doing that.

And you get sort of a different
version of that when you do a

similar kind of event in a
country that is not your own.

And so I think, I think it was
especially enlightening for our

students to kind of, I don't
know, to be, to be taken through

that experience by, by a, a
group of like Chinese officials

essentially.
And that that that opened their

eyes to a different a different
slice of that experience.

What what are some of those
examples that were kind of

different priorities from
something that would be the way

we would do it here if we were
performing for an important

group?
Yeah, I mean, I so of course I

come at it the other the other
piece of this and then I'll I

will answer your question.
The the other piece of this is

musicians planning things on
musical for musical ends versus

like event coordinators who plan
things towards event ends or, or

making sure that it that, oh
man, making sure that an event

exemplifies the priorities of of
the the people who are putting

it on.
Yeah.

No, that, that makes total
sense.

Sometimes if it depending on
like if it's a church service or

an official service, they, they
want it, you know, it's a, it's

a, it's a performance in itself,
the event.

And yeah, event coordinators, my
well, we want this piece of

music here instead of there.
And it's like, we want you to do

this instead of that.
And it makes more sense for the

event experience and maybe not
musically.

That's right.
So I mean, for example, part of

our part of our rehearsal
process for that performance was

that the students rehearsed the
the photo op, which for a

musician, I'm like, that's not
the priority.

We're here to do a concert.
But in actuality, you have a

very important person in
government who has come for a

sort of narrow window of time
and you want to make sure that

you get the photo that you need
and that you don't waste

anyone's time.
And so you, you make sure that

everyone knows exactly what time
they're going to go to the

risers and stand in these spots
as opposed to those spots and

how many photos we're going to
take.

And then what happens afterwards
and where everyone goes.

You know, another, another
example that perhaps is a little

more musically minded is, is
that there were pieces that had

solos.
And this is a group of singers

that doesn't usually sing
together.

It's two to 10 people, maybe
from a bunch of different

choirs.
And part of what we're trying to

show in this event is unity.
And so in making a show of

unity, you want to make sure
that you represent all the

different choirs and all the
different styles of singing and

everyone's different strengths.
And so there were singers who

were like, really kind of like
there was a show choir.

So there were singers who were
kind of pop trained or or kind

of more comfortable in that
style.

There were a couple gospel
choirs who are who have

different kind of skills in
improvisation.

And then we have sort of some
classically trained folks like

the singers that ¾«¶«´«Ã½ brought.
And so I think part of the, the

priority then was to make sure
that everybody gets featured and

in a way that plays to their
strengths and, and also in a way

that like makes a cohesive
event.

So, so that's not necessarily a
priority that is opposite to

what we might think about in a
in a concert here, but it was a

unique feature of, of having a
choir that draws singers from

lots of different choirs.
Right, absolutely.

And, and that experience, the
international experience is so

important to developing
musicians because like he said,

you learn that different places
have different approaches to

rehearsal, to practice, to
execution, to planning.

And that just it, it affects
the, the young developing

musicians education.
And it just, it will make them a

better performer, a better
teacher, all those things.

And that's like you were saying,
¾«¶«´«Ã½ is becoming more and more

international.
Yeah, yeah.

And I, I will say that one of
the most exciting challenges in,

in my mind as like the conductor
of this choir was that we, we

didn't always have like ample
time for a sound check before

performance.
Sometimes we, you know, we were

performing at, at a school of
theater arts, which was such a

cool experience.
They did demos of all of this,

like Chinese physical theater
and, and like face changing,

which is a whole kind of mask
art that's part of of Chinese

theater.
But we were performing in a

black box and we didn't have
time to do a sound check.

But, but in the middle of this
kind of exchange event, it's

like, and now the ¾«¶«´«Ã½ choir will
sing a song.

And I said, we sure will.
And we get up there and we just

start like there isn't an
opportunity to say, what is this

space going to give back to you
when you're singing?

Are you going to be able to hear
yourself?

Are you going to be able to hear
the people around you?

Will you be able to hear the
people across the choir?

And, and we sang in like every
performance we gave was in a

different venue.
And so the challenge then for

the singers and for me is being
really, really fast at adapting

to the space that you find
yourself in the space, the space

that you find yourself singing
in. 11 kind of prime example of

this was that we did a a kind of
pop up performance on the street

in in Fuzhou in this kind of
historic shopping district.

And it was a it was an evening
performance, which was a really

fun energy.
And what we learned when we

arrived was that there were also
other street performers, dancers

and singers and a kind of
trumpet player who who preceded

us in this evening of St.
Entertainment.

And as, as we're sort of being
led by our guides through this

shopping district, we're being
taken into museums and shown

like a Jasmine tea shop.
And students have the

opportunity to sift Jasmine
flowers and tea and then look at

lacquered vases, right?
There's all of all of this kind

of stuff that isn't directly
related to the singing that

they're about to do, but they're
getting to know the area and

they're kind of looking around
and wondering where exactly

we're going to sing.
We haven't been shown the place

yet.
And then and then we arrive at

this square and there are all of
these people who are gathered

and are very excited to see
what's going on.

And we are, we are like told
live in the moment.

You know, after this bugle
player finishes, you all are

going to start.
So like it's time to go on stage

now.
And we say where is the stage?

And they say this area, you
should face the McDonald's.

You said, OK, great, we'll face
the McDonald's.

That's right.
And so, you know, we all shuffle

on there and we're doing, we did
a, an arrangement of the Dolly

Parton song Light of a Clear
Blue Morning with one of our

students, Jasmine Williams, as a
phenomenal soloist.

And she she was sort of like,
there's a mic here.

Should I use it?
And I said probably that would

be good.
Let's let's do it.

Yeah, fine.
And and the choir has hums and

oohs that go under this solo.
And because we're outside and

I'm realizing, you know, they're
not singing under an overhang or

in any kind of like shell that's
going to help them acoustically.

We probably should change all of
those hums to oohs and all of

the oohs to OS so that there's
more sound because sound like

behaves differently outside.
And so we're making all of these

calls like as we are getting
ready to sing and they don't

have any chance to, to sound
check anything.

There's no sound check.
We use you stand and you go.

And, and it was my favorite
moment maybe of the trip was,

was seeing these students go
from being really not sure what

this was going to look like or
where we were singing or when.

And, and kind of being like,
it's hot out here and I'm a

little bit tired because it's
like 9:00 PM and we've been

traveling for a while.
And then as soon as we got out

there and started singing and
there were, there was a really

enthusiastic crowd and, and they
were so attentive and so

interested in the music we were
making this, the, the students

and I all just really sharpened
in that moment and found it was

such a fun performance.
I mean, it, it just was like

electric and, and to, to see
that transformation happen from

like, I don't know what's going
on or exactly what this is going

to look like.
And I'm not even sure that I'm

totally into it to, to as soon
as we start singing, being able

to adapt on the fly and, and
make changes.

I heard them, they were
listening differently and they

were singing differently.
They responded to yeah, they

responded to their surroundings
and to the energy of the crowd

and adjusted live with me in a
way that I, I was really proud

of him for.
Like it it.

That is the resilience that you
have to develop as a performer

in order to be adaptable for any
context.

And, and you know, it's what
makes a successful performance

is your ability to respond in
the moment to the environment

that you're in.
Yeah, absolutely.

And both in, in terms of
performing and in, in teaching

as we develop musician, yeah,
music educators in choir, band

or orchestra, it's the same
thing.

You might go to a concert hall
and things aren't you don't have

enough space or it's not quite
what you thought or a number of

of factors.
So it's important to have those

experiences as a student to see
like, oh, we didn't rehearse

this, but we still pulled it off
and had a successful

performance.
Audience loved it all those.

So that's part of the very real
world experience as a music

performer and educator.
Yeah, and it's, I mean, there is

also just something kind of fun
about like we arrived, we

arrived in Fujo.
I think we had a chance to sort

of unpack a little bit and
shower and whatever.

And then I think we rehearsed in
a hallway in the hotel because

it was like, we probably should
sing a couple things before we

have to perform tomorrow.
And I mean, there is, there is

something that's really, I think
bonding about being being tired

together and saying, I know that
we're tired, but we're here to

do something and we do love what
we're doing and, and like, I'm

excited to do it even though I'm
sleep deprived.

Right.
Yeah.

And, and even though I'm in,
even though I'm in a hotel of a

hallway, but, but it was the the
boomiest, you know, there was

like tile everywhere.
So we got lots and lots of

reverb.
You know it.

There's something really fun.
The fun of discovery, I think

shows up a lot when you when you
travel with an ensemble.

Right.
And it's, it's also, it shows

the preparation that's gone on
during the year, a lot of that

kind of mental muscle memory and
everything that you've practice,

even if you're not in the most
ideal circumstance, all the

training is gonna kick in.
That's right.

That's right.
Yeah.

They, I, I, I have to believe
that it was like an

overwhelmingly positive
experience for us because of,

because of what it taught us and
what it drew on, of, of the

things that we had learned
throughout the year.

Well, that's really incredible
to hear and I'm sure I'll be

hearing more stories about that
that trip in the upcoming year.

I do want to look forward now to
20252026.

What are some things that the
Meadows choirs are are going to

be doing in this upcoming
academic year?

It's busy, which I love.
I love keeping keeping myself

and the choirs busy.
So I mean, already this year we

had the Chamber Singers did a a
performance as part of the

inauguration activities for SM,
US new president, President

Hartzell.
They sang in Perkins Chapel for

a service in the week of the
inauguration.

And they sang some Palestrina
because it's also Palestrina's

500th birthday thereabouts this
year.

And so that was.
Yeah, so, and also, I mean, I, I

hearing that we were going to be
singing in Perkins Chapel.

It's a beautiful space to sing
Renaissance music.

And so that was, that was
certainly a it was an early

performance for us.
It was, we had five rehearsals I

think before it was time to time
to do that.

But it really got the singers
kind of working hard right away

and in a very nerdy way.
We are playing with different

tuning systems.
So with that piece, we worked on

singing with just intonation,
which kind of without getting

deeply into science relies on
kind of ratios of tuning rather

than the equal temperament of of
a piano.

And, and it's something that is
unique to not unique, but that

voices are especially equipped
to do because we can adjust live

our intonation from from chord
to chord and moment to moment.

So that was, that was a great
performance that we had just

about a week ago as I'm
recording this.

And then we will perform the the
combined choirs will perform

with the Meadow Symphony
Orchestra in the spring for

Meadows of the Meyerson, which
I, I believe will also do that

concert up in Plano at the
Robinson Center.

And we'll sing Raefon Williams,
Donanobispatum, which is a

fantastic work.
OK.

Yeah, I'm familiar.
Yeah.

Yeah, great.
It's I mean it, it is.

I find it it's a big master work
orchestra.

Several it is.
It is and and you know, I find

it quite affecting because it it
it depicts how thoroughly war

effects every corner of society
that that actually nobody is

nobody gets out of of that
experience.

It it it infiltrates our daily,
our daily life, right?

The sounds and the the damage
is, is actually quite pervasive.

And then musically, there's
really fun singing to do.

And yeah, and lots of cool like
orchestral effects that get us

the the sounds of war.
But I also, it's been a while

since the choirs here I think
have done a a combined large

scale work with orchestra.
And so I'm excited to give the

students that opportunity.
Right.

I, I've been here six years now
and Meadows at the Meyerson or

Meadows at the Windspear is
always the Big Spring event at

the the Meyerson Center in
downtown Dallas.

And yeah, this is the first time
I think I remember the, the

choirs being involved in that.
Usually it's the the orchestra

and dance or lyric opera,
something like that.

So that that's definitely an
exciting new change.

Yeah, I mean, I, I'm eager for
us to do.

I, I love collaborating and I'm,
I'm always eager to find ways to

get the choirs interacting with,
with other arts groups on campus

and, and within Meadows.
So I think I think it'll be a

great experience for them.
And I also, you know, I, I teach

our, our graduate conductors
here.

And I think there's an important
experience of preparing and, and

sort of going through the
preparation of a large scale

work that our conductors have to
see and that, and that our music

educators need to see.
Because the hope certainly is

that when, when students leave
Meadows, they feel equipped for

all kinds of potential future
professional activities.

And part of that is, is their
comfort in breaking down a large

work into into, you know,
manageable bite sized

rehearsals.
Right.

Those experiences are so
important because you never know

that maybe the the only time
they do a performance that big

and it like you said, it might
be preparation for many more to

come.
Now you, you mentioned that

you're going to be going to a
Sonia later in the in the fall.

Tell us about that.
Yeah.

So I, this is where I think that
I really lucked out in coming to

¾«¶«´«Ã½ because as after I arrived,
I learned from some of my

colleagues who teach in, in
Meadows and Perkins that we have

sort of a, a blossoming
connection with the Arvo Parrot

Center.
So I heard you're going to be

going to Estonia later this
fall.

Tell us about that.
Yes I will.

I'm going in about a month
exactly with a few members of

the faculty who who teach in
Perkins or Meadows or both, and

with the director of our, our
theology library, Bridwell,

because there's kind of an the
beginnings of of a connection.

Or I mean, I don't know that I'd
go quite so far as to call it a

partnership, but perhaps that's
on the horizon with the Arvo

Parrot Center, which is in
Estonia.

So Arvo Parrot is an Estonian
composer.

It's his 90th birthday this
year.

Lots of birthdays coming up in
this conversation.

Composer birthdays, right?
Which of course musicians love

to celebrate because it's an
excuse to perform the persons

music and parrots choral music
is man.

It's astonishingly beautiful.
He sometimes gets associated

with the term holy minimalism,
which is a bit of a contested

term, but his music is it's
simple.

Sometimes it's quite complex,
but but there's a kind of

simplicity to it or a stillness
that that is often attributed to

it.
And his music is also often

described as having a, a
spiritual quality.

And you know, certainly he wrote
to a lot of sacred texts.

He also wrote with some texts
that are that are not tied to a

particular faith tradition.
And yeah, so, so I have this

opportunity to travel with a
couple other members of the

faculty to this conference
that's happening for kind of in

honor of his 90th birthday,
where we'll hear from various

scholars on on Parrot's music.
I also, and I'm, I'm speaking,

you know, without having
actually been there.

Some of my colleagues have been
there.

So I, I imagine I'll be able to
speak in more detail when I'm

when I'm back, right.
But but the thing that I'm

interested in, based on reports
I've heard from my colleagues,

is that that actually going to
visit this center changes how

you think about parrots music.
There are, you know, composer

museums are a thing.
There's, there are like you can

go to various places in Austria
and Germany and see museums or

houses that are, you know, in
honor of, of a historical

composer.
And, and that's a particular

kind of experience.
But the, the Arvo Parrot Center

was constructed sort of in the
middle of the woods, which is a

little bit of OK, right?
But, but it's as I understand

it, that it's all very
intentional, how it was designed

and how the aesthetics of the
center's design are meant to, to

help you understand the
spaciousness of his music or the

stillness of his music in a, in
a kind of experiential way.

And not just as a, it's not just
a museum where you can look at

manuscripts, although there,
there is that too, right?

Rather, it is a place where
we're going there and taking in

the environment gives you a
sense of, of the composer's

priorities.
So I'm, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm

very curious to, to take in
elements of the design and to,

and to see what that place is
like.

And maybe that sounds, you know,
a little bit basic or, or, you

know, I'm sure there's, there's
a bunch of scholarly, there's

brilliant, brilliant, brilliant
scholars writing about parrots

music.
And I, I look forward to

learning from them.
But I also think that there's

kind of a, a different way of
knowing that I'll get to engage

by traveling to Estonia in in,
in actually experiencing the

surroundings.
And then my hope is no, my hope.

And my plan is to perform some
of Parrot's music with with our

choirs after I'm back.
So I think we'll do one of his

pieces in in November and then a
couple more in the spring.

Right.
And I was gonna say as a

composer, you a lot of times you
write to the ensemble you have,

especially if you're very
familiar with it, but you also

write to the space that you have
if you're familiar with the, the

venue.
And so scene where, where he

would have composed music or
that the environment that he was

composing music in is gonna
really inform the, the way you

see the music and teach it and,
and perform it.

So that's really exciting.
Yeah.

I mean, I think every composer
I've I've talked to gets

inspiration from different
places.

It does seem that that for
Parrot the surroundings that he

lives in or kind of the
spaciousness of nature or the

the stillness of it shapes
shapes how he writes.

I I can't speak directly to to
particular venues that he

composed for at least not at the
moment.

But I, but I think that the
other side of that, the, the

kind of the world that you live
in shaping how you think about

music and the kinds of sounds
that you imagine and then and

then write down is certainly a,
a point of influence that's

worth attending to as a
conductor.

Right.
That's really exciting and we'll

definitely be looking forward to
that.

The last thing that I wanted to
discuss is you're going to be

having some special guests on
your first choir, the Singing

Girls of Texas.
Who are they?

They are a trouble choir that's
based out of Fort Worth, which

is just local, right?
It's just just down the road, as

it were.
And they will it's it's a bunch

of kind of high school age
students under the direction of

Jackson Hill, who's a a
conductor here in Texas.

And yeah, they'll, they'll sing
alongside our choirs on this

concert.
So you'll hear the three ¾«¶«´«Ã½

choirs and the singing girls of
Texas.

Wow, that's really exciting.
Well, Margaret, so glad to have

you on for a second time.
So wonderful to hear all these

stories about your first year,
your trip to China and what we

have to look forward to in the
new year.

Awesome, thanks so much for
having me.

Thanks for tuning into another
episode of Meadows on the Mic,

and a big thanks to Margaret
Winchell for returning to the

show.
Be sure to check out the Fall

Choral Concert on Tuesday,
September 30th at 7:30 PM in

Caruth Auditorium.
For more information on the

choral program at ¾«¶«´«Ã½ Meadows,
go to smu.edu/meadows.

Meadows on the Mic is brought to
you by the ¾«¶«´«Ã½ Meadows Marketing

Department and is available on
all major podcast platforms.

For questions and comments,
e-mail us at Meadows on the

mic@smu.edu and follow us on
social media at ¾«¶«´«Ã½ Meadows on

all major platforms.
We'll see you next time.

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